Primula
Flower of the Shire and Princess of the Mark
Reged: 01/03/04
Posts: 4045
Loc: Pacific NW
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This is something that came about as an expansion of thoughts in the movie-thread, just for the sake of musing.
When our good King recently expressed a dislike for musicals because he wanted his stories to be "real" to him and the breaking into song and dance pulled him out of that comfortable narrative-created bubble, I think I understood what he meant.
He desired nothing to destroy the 'realness' of a literary/artistic world, though to me, the music and dance flows with a story because it is a visual/audio representation of the emotions that they are having inside - to me it isn't as if the whole world is suddenly literally singing along with them, it's rather as if I am looking at their *inner* self, the world through their eyes in which it *feels* like the whole world is paying attention to them and echoing their emotions and thoughts.
But aside from musicals, the concept of a narrative world needing to remain unbroken, whole and 'real' is something I was pondering. It is the reason some of us have given for not wanting to watch bloopers, or even 'making of' segments. It is why we don't want to see photos that show where the crew was, why we flinch if a microphone accidently wanders into view. We want our fantasy world to be real, not a sham. We want our heroes to be real, doing real good things somewhere in the universe.
And we usually don't want our heroes to age.
One of the things I love about heroic, happy endings is that I am free to continue 'believing' they are still out there, happy and heroic. I hated Alexander Dumas' The Man in the Iron Mask because it aged and killed off my heroic Musketeers from his previous book, for instance. I wanted them to remain young, strong and out doing good 'forever' in my mind. I love reading of the Scarlet Pimpernel, whose tales end while he is still hale and heroic, I leave Robin Hood and his Merry band performing good deeds and laughing over their roasted poached deer and quietly try to forget his sad ending by betrayal in old age.
One of the books I read in my youth was Terry Brook's "tolkien-alike attempt", The Sword of Shannara. I enjoyed it so much I eagerly watched for the next book but when it came - horror! My heroes were old, decrepit, even dead! I put it down and it was a long time before I picked it up again... I felt as if the author had betrayed the characters I'd come to love, allowing the decay of time into the bubble.
And yet - here is Tolkien.
I sorrow at the aging of Aragorn, the passing of what was fought for so hard. I sigh over the bittersweet ending of Merry and Pippin, laid to rest together so far from their Shire homes in honor. I wonder what became of Gimli, adrift upon the seas in his dotage, tended by his unaging friend. When I read my Horatio Hornblower books, I see Horatio grow older, but I leave him finally by his fireside, content, old but healthy, living with his beloved. If he were written by Tolkien, I would have to also see him die, laid to rest, and perhaps all of his deeds gone into the forgetfulness of the future as well.
Tolkien brings us into his bubble and we believe it. It is real to us, the heroes (for the most part) have a happy ending, or some way to find their peace. Yet time marches on. He doesn't leave us with Aragorn as King forever. Sam is many times Mayor, but not forever. Rosie is his darling wife, but one day she ages and dies, leaving him a widower. We are left with a palette of aging heroes in a world that will not stop for them. Throughout his work, one of his themes is that everything changes. Even heroes age and die. Even those who do good works do not last forever and can even be entirely forgotten. And yet he also shows that this is not the equivalent of 'vanity vanity all is vanity,' but that there is still a reason to live and fight, there is still hope, in spite of time's endless flow.
Just musing on it - I have no real conclusion to the thought except to wonder that he was able to not only bring about such skillful life, but also skillful death. Perhaps it is a great part of what makes it so real.
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"When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes." - Desiderius Erasmus
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king_theoden
King of the Realm
Reged: 01/31/02
Posts: 21906
Loc: The Hairy Foot Tavern
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I am constrained by my Christian belief and respect for God to say, "My God," so I'll just say "My Word" with the same exultation...
My Word, Prim, but that was well written!  You took what I was feeling and carried it one (or two) steps forward. That was a piece of art! 
You have Tolkien written right on. I can't help believe (as others have also noted) that his experience in war, where death of friends is quite a reality, led him to some of the untimely deaths of his heroes. I just wish he'd been around longer to write of further adventures of King Aragorn and even Sam and his daily problems every mayor faces.
You know, Richard Adams, when I asked him about the death of Hazel at the end, wrote to me, "Death is a natural part of life." But do we need to read about it? Watership Down had such a great ending; then Hazel just keels over after being persuaded by the Rabbit of Death convinces him that Hazel would be quite happy in his Owlsla. Even the movie carried that scene. It just left an empty space in my heart.
What a day it will be when we're with the Lord, and there'll be no more sadness, and that lack of sadness will be forever. No more growing old and losing our friends and family due to death. Much like what Gandalf spoke of in the LotR film, Return of the King (don't know if that was in the book, but it does seem to fit Tolkien's belief).
Well, I'm going on and on. Prim, you have a gift and so are gifted. Love your writings! You almost make me want to watch a musical tonight to see if I can share in the joy you get when watching one. My Word! 
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I thank God everytime I remember you. Philippians 1:3
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Primula
Flower of the Shire and Princess of the Mark
Reged: 01/03/04
Posts: 4045
Loc: Pacific NW
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My thanks.
I had mixed feelings on the death of Hazel-rah. It was sad, but somehow also so needed - we'd been made very aware of the brevity of lapine life, the need for them to have kits or to see their warren become no more than empty holes in the ground. It brought a continuity to it that helped it be 'always' there, that while Hazel himself would not continue, younger versions of himself, of Fiver and Bigwig and all of them, would. And Hazel received healing.
Perhaps all of our desires for an eternal happy ending are built into our very beings. We are little carbon copies of our Creator in a way, bearing the 'image' of Him, hence we are sub-creators (as Tolkien and Lewis liked to dub it) with creativity, and we also forever long for the justice and perfection that we feel sure must exist. We long for a happy ending that will not end because one day we will have exactly that in Christ, it is a built-in need in our souls, a compass that points towards home.
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"When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes." - Desiderius Erasmus
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Varnafindė
Tender of the Horses
Reged: 05/28/06
Posts: 51
Loc: Norway
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Quote:
Tolkien brings us into his bubble and we believe it. It is real to us, the heroes (for the most part) have a happy ending, or some way to find their peace. Yet time marches on.
With Elves even more than with Men. Tolkien tells in the Silmarillion (so this should perhaps be for a different thread) how the Noldor are cursed - because of their rebellion - with doubt and betrayal and strife, and with the fact that all their endeavours will eventually come to nothing.
And he then describes it, during the rest of their history.
When they rebel and go to Middle-earth, they leave most of their treasures behind. Some they take along, and they make new treasures - only to have them destroyed by dragons.
They fight against the Enemy, and get killed by the thousands.
There are even the Kinslayings, where those who ought to be allies, betray and kill each other.
And even the tales - the works of the loremasters - about all their endeavours are eventually lost, destroyed in war and ruin and deluge.
Tolkien is very clear about what he says even in LotR: There will be partial victories - great partial victories - but there will be no final conquest of evil while this world, Arda, lasts.
Arda Unmarred - free of evil - existed only in the mind of Eru Illuvatar. It became Arda Marred even before it had its actual beginning.
But after the end of Arda Marred, there will be Arda Healed ...
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Signature by faramir at NarniaWeb
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king_theoden
King of the Realm
Reged: 01/31/02
Posts: 21906
Loc: The Hairy Foot Tavern
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Well-written, my Norwegian friend. Sounds a little like the real world, doesn't it? And more than a little like the Book of Revelation.  Tolkien was certainly a Christian.
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I thank God everytime I remember you. Philippians 1:3
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Merigin
Dwarf Prince
Reged: 09/25/03
Posts: 5672
Loc: Hawaii
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I know that I am always saddened at the death of a hero, regardless of the role or side that they play on. one set of books really struck me in a hard way, it was the Dragonlance: The Chronicles Trilogy. Much like in the Tolkien world there is a motley crew of reluctant hero's that eventually (mostly) prevail. but in the course of the story two of my favorite characters died, one death being very tragic due to the nature of his death and his relation to the rest of the party. the other heroic, the kind that makes a good book a good book, a selfless death for a cause that had rejected the hero. I'd use names and more wordy definitions but it would give away too much of the story. I would encourage anyone to read the series (there are three books I believe)
I suppose that it is a natural part of storytelling, the choice to leave you in the bliss of "ever-after" or to show a more translatable version of reality, that ends in a good light, so instead of inspiring day-dreams, rather it would inspire hope.
But then to keep all of the characters whose story ended would have made for a more unwholesome and cluttered story indeed. I know that I felt for Borimir at his fall, yet, what was it that was left for him to do? the same goes for Thorin. a sad ending, but if he had lived what would that have done to LotR?
but I guess that's why I'm a reader, not a writer
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Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may be blameless and harmless, Children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation , among whom you shine as lights in the world PHILIPPIANS 2:14-15
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king_theoden
King of the Realm
Reged: 01/31/02
Posts: 21906
Loc: The Hairy Foot Tavern
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Excellent points, Dwarf Prince! I think losing friends in the war made Tolkien write his stories the way that he did. Add a dose of reality, if you will. Much the same way that Herbert did with Dune. I will look for the Dragonlance trilogy. Thanks for putting me on the trail of a good book (or three). 
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I thank God everytime I remember you. Philippians 1:3
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Merigin
Dwarf Prince
Reged: 09/25/03
Posts: 5672
Loc: Hawaii
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Well Dragonlance is a large almost role playing-like series of books. there are tons of them out there, never really counted them all... the original trilogy is the Chronicles, Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman wrote them and they setup most of the stage for all the rest of the books out there. The Chronicles is one of my favorite sets in the "universe". kind of reminds me of Star Wars in a way. There is a core Trilogy, and a whole bunch of other writers added in and extended, and developed characters, stories, histories and plots. I'd definitely recommend that set as a first, it helps all of the many other books to make a little more sence.
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Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may be blameless and harmless, Children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation , among whom you shine as lights in the world PHILIPPIANS 2:14-15
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Rosie Cotton
Daughter of the King and Princess of the Mark
Reged: 10/13/04
Posts: 6276
Loc: USA
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You do make some excellent points, Mer.
I would add to that there is always more to a story than what we read, in that we can read into something and draw things from it that are quite different from what someone else gets from the same. And sometimes the most senseless of tragedies still have a powerful tale to tell, either in a lesson from one generation to another, or an inspiration to do differently than those who went before, indeed, learning from the mistakes of another. So, in that way, even the most senseless of occurances could have positive outcomes somewhere down the line. I like to think that God doesn't waste a thing, though he does lament over our poor choices when made, he never despairs of us, but always offers out that hope.
That can be just one take on such a story of tragedy, untimely and senseless seeming deaths.
I will look into the books, too.
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